May 14, 2009

"Do you think about pay like a man... or a woman?"

Take the quiz. Read the article.
Partly women fear being too aggressive and feisty - which can be viewed as negative in the workplace - but I think it's more complex. It is part of our conditioning that men equate money with status and power but women see job satisfaction as more of an issue.

Women are more likely than men to think, well, I'm good at my job, so I will be noticed and promoted, and I will eventually get a pay rise. Men, on the other hand, will go to their line manager and say they deserve a pay rise... now.

ADDED: Suddenly, I realize I need to just say to you: I think that you should value this blog and show your appreciation in dollars. There is a PayPal button in the sidebar to use whenever you want, and here it is, to be forthright and clear in a manly way:




If you read every day, I recommend $20 a year. $5 or $10 would also be good. Or just toss in $1 whenever a post makes you feel you've really gotten something worthwhile.

70 comments:

Bissage said...

Well, that settles it.

There's no use fighting it.

I might as well accept it.

I am a girl.

Pogo said...

"A high proportion of women work in areas like HR, marketing, and nursing and they often get paid less than their male colleagues, because the men still dominate the senior positions."

They get paid less than their male colleagues for the exact same job and hours?

Rather than fearing being too aggressive and feist, maybe British women are just stupid.

Ron said...

I asked my line manager, who is me, for a raise and I threw me out! "What," I said, "in this economy? What a nerve!"

Pogo said...

feisty, the feeling, not feist, the band.


oops

EDH said...

I think it's all those 1950-60s situation comedies where the apron-clad housewife threatened her husband with a frying pan in order to get him to ask his boss for a raise.

Big Mike said...

I tested out as female, which my wife asserts is not true.

But for much of my career I've worked for female managers, so I wonder whether that's part of it. They have taken pains to reward me for a job well done.

PatHMV said...

That's very old news.

Amba summarized the dilemma for women nicely, back when the American study was first published over a year and a half ago:

"A woman who doesn't negotiate is a wimp; a woman who does is a bitch. The former proves (to those looking for proof) female inferiority, or unfitness for the rough-and-tumble (and high pay) of the higher echelons of the work world. The latter suggests that if you're female you can be excellent or you can be lovable and womanly, not both."

Balfegor said...

Like a woman. I think about pay like a woman.

Paul Zrimsek said...

I think about pay like a woman: I'd much rather be spending someone else's.

Jen said...

Like a woman. Unfortunately.

It's time for me to stop messing about and just go for the jugular.

Like a man (or a coyote).

AllenS said...

I've often wondered, if there was a correlation between the pay a woman earns and her breast size.

Kirk Parker said...

AllenS,

That sounds like an urgently-needed study. Do you need any research assistants?

AllenS said...

Kirk,

I think we need to look at art from, oh, about 35,000 years ago for a start.

bearing said...

Wait, I can't answer the questions because I don't have a job.

Richard Fagin said...

Well that settles it. The hourly rate's going from 380 to 410 next month!

commenter said...

i don't have a job yet, either, but i have created in my mind at least five apps that no man programmer has yet created because they can't think like a woman.

I could so market to women. perhaps these men don't understand the consumer is their wife!

anyway, I watch those pc/mac videos and everytime that i'm a mac guy smiles at the thought of women genii
on laptops and portable devices i get a smile, too.

even though the artist known as Cat Stevens said it's hard to get by and just a smile, girl, …well i guess i am just a hard headed woman at that. Yusuf, i saw you smiling in that interview you did for the press a couple weeks ago. To Yusuf, the roadsinger, and to you Mr. Jobs, here's a really big smile right back atcha with rimless eyeglasses and deviated septums :

8^)

campy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickenlittle said...

If you read every day, I recommend $20 a year.

Done!

traditionalguy said...

Your too cheap...we would have paid more.

lacegrl130 said...

Done as well - $20

It is hard work and you make it look easy...

Lem said...

Now that I got me some Seagram's gin
Everybody got their cup
but they ain't chipped in
Now this type of shit happens all the time
You gotta get yours before I get mine
Everything is fine when you're listening to the D O G
.

Snoop Lyrics

Penny said...

If it's hard for you to negotiate for a higher salary, do two things. First, work hard at becoming an excellent interviewer, and second, always remember that employers are likely to never value you more than they do in their own mind's eye right after they decide they MUST have you on their team.

By far, the largest salary increases come when you move from one company to another company that needs your skills. The next easiest time to negotiate salary is for an internal promotion. Bickering over an annual increase is a losing proposition in a company of size. You get a few dollars more for a whole heck of a lot of ill will.

I think abut pay like an experienced woman. This survey says I think otherwise.

AlgonquinS said...

I'm a Man's man. I gave $22. $20 for you, and a dollar each for the breasts.

amba said...

I had an interesting conversation, but I can't remember where . . . oh, yeah. In e-mail. Among other things, we talked about how having subscribers, even for a pittance, would change blogging. "Incentivize" it. If every time I got a serious new reader I got, say, $20 for a year, would I still be blogging regularly? I actually think the answer is yes. The more steady readers you attracted, the more income you would receive -- there would be a satisfyingly quantifiable relationship between effort and reward, and you wouldn't feel you were wasting your time in a practical sense, or investing it quixotically -- and you could justify deducting blogging costs from your taxes, etc. Loyalty and praise are soul food, and donations are touching, but we have to "bleg" for them and it feels demeaning, like a breach of the "pure," for-love-alone relationship between blogger and reader. We susbscribe to magazines, why not to our favorite blogs?

The problem is . . . how do you do it? You have to have free content to attract people in the first place. Do you only allow commenting to subscribers? Lurkers can be some of the most faithful readers. Any ideas?? Do you blog for free until you have a steady following? Do you ask for voluntary subscriptions? What do you give subscribers that's any different and better than what free readers get?

tim maguire said...

Women are more likely than men to think, well, I'm good at my job, so I will be noticed and promoted, and I will eventually get a pay rise. Men, on the other hand, will go to their line manager and say they deserve a pay rise... now.There is not a word of truth to this assertion. And it's high time these "pay inequity" articles start getting honest about the fact that men and women in equal positions are paid equally. The "pay inequality" is a result of men and women following different career paths.

That's very different problem (if it even is a problem) and I can see why interest groups choose to be dishonest--the truth does not serve them well.

Henry Buck said...

As a man, I'm going to march right in here and say that you should share your donations with regular commenters.

David said...

Or--if you are a liberal--pay nothing and ask the federal government to step in.

commenter said...

or if you are business minded, steal a good idea or photograph from some one less fortunate than you or someone who earns less than you and envelop it, contain it in your own business, or exploit it for your own profit.

Trooper York said...

Blogging is like sex. You should do it for love not money. Just sayn'

Trooper York said...

Plus if you paid for comments Jeremey would be rich.

Hey maybe he would turn Republican.
Heh.

chickenlittle said...

Blogging is like sex. You should do it for love not money. Just sayn'

There's nothin' wrong with showing appreciation-I could think of a couple more bloggers but nevermind.

Trooper York said...

If you appreciate it, send a nice gift. Maybe a photo of a dog urinating. But leaving money on the night table. I don't know man.

I just don't know the blogger rules. Silly me.

Smilin' Jack said...

If you read every day, I recommend $20 a year.

Donate to the NY Times instead. Ann gets a lot of her material from there and has said she doesn't subscribe anymore, just freeloads online. Also they need the money more than she does.

chickenlittle said...

If you appreciate it, send a nice gift. Maybe a photo of a dog urinating. But leaving money on the night table.

My wife pays way more than $20 a year for various cheesy mags and "intellectual" trash. I don't subscribe to anything anymore. I think it's well worth it.

Donate to the NY Times instead.

No thank you. Their Schaden is my Freude

Trooper York said...

Hey chickenlittle I am just busting balls. By all means drop some money in the cup. I am sure the blog mistress will really appreciate.

Boy blogging has a lot recondite standards and practices.

Trooper York said...

There should be a comma after boy.

Boy Blogging is what Zach does when he is not tormenting Palladian. Heh.

knox said...

I definitely used to have the whole "Eventually I will be noticed and promoted" attitude. It took years for me to realize you need to go ahead and ask for more than you think you would ever get. It tells your employer you know how much you are worth, and that you expect to be compensated accordingly.

Not trying to sound like a Master of the Universe, but in my experience, it it's well worth the temporary discomfort. And it has a lasting effect: every year when review time comes around, your boss knows what you expect and that you are paying attention!

$9,000,000,000 Write Off said...

I'm only paying you 40% of what I pay Mankiw.

Issob Morocco said...

You need to apply for Obama stimulus dollars so you can prop up the blog as us readers are financially pillaged and plundered by the Democrats in power and unable to support you in the means you deserve.

Eli Blake said...

Ann, blogger is a free service (a point which I've made several times when others have complained about it-- for something that's free I think it's pretty good.)

I donate on occasion (as much as my teacher-that-moonlights budget will allow) to blogs that pay for their hosting sites, but since this blog is free please give me a ***reason*** why I should donate to you. If the reason is good enough I will donate to you (I read your blog several times per week but not every day so therefore I will donate $12 if you come up with a good enough reason why I should pay you for running a blog on a free site; simply because you are doing it is not a good enough reason because many of us have blogs that we run simply because we enjoy having a blog.)

Fen said...

Penny: Bickering over an annual increase is a losing proposition in a company of size. You get a few dollars more for a whole heck of a lot of ill will.Echo. I've been on the bad side of this. To punish them, I quit and was unemployed for 2 months. I sure showed them!

AJ Lynch said...

Eli:

Some bloggers have a profit motive. Althouse works her butt off to keep us interested. Even if blogger if free, she can't make a profit without tips from the readers. So why not be a mensch, dig deep and make her day?

Penny said...

Lessons learned the hard way, Fen. We all have the stories. Basically though, when you are looking for more money in an annual review, you have nothing to negotiate with but your ability to walk out the door. That's why negotiating HARD on the way in or on the way up makes so much sense.

chickenlittle said...

Eli said:
please give me a ***reason*** why I should donate to you.

Umm, because it feels good?
Don't be so repressed.
Just a dollar?

pj (lowercase) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
rhhardin said...

I never asked for a raise.

In fact in the last few years I've commented that I thought I was overpaid, but the boss said it's the principle of the thing.

They like to fight for departmental salary allotments.

Ann Althouse said...

"a good enough reason why I should pay you for running a blog on a free site"

It's pretty obvious. I work long and hard as a writer, and writers deserve to make money for their work.

Trooper York said...

Heh.

Penny said...

"I work long and hard as a writer, and writers deserve to make money for their work."

Not saying you don't deserve to be tipped, Ann, but this is exactly the kind of argument that way too many people make when they want more money, and it just doesn't hold any water. Many people work long and hard hours, and writers in general earn what the market brings them. There is no shortage of writers in business, and particularly on the internet.

When the internet finds a way to monetize beyond ads, I feel certain you will have a special spot and be well positioned to make your money.

Patience, Ann.

traditionalguy said...

The value of Free Althouse Blog is the special star writer who never misses a day. I guess you could take Shakespear blogging daily, or John Steinbeck or Mark Twain, all for granted. I for one support the good things in my life because they support me in a real way. Church Pastors always say contribute where you are fed, which is wise advice. Also to Honor is a phrase that means "giving money".

chickenlittle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickenlittle said...

Or--if you are a liberal--pay nothing and ask the federal government to step in.

I could see paying some of those lib bloggers not to blog like we do some farmers- we could be like-fallowers-they'd probably like it too!

Eli Blake said...

OK, I sent you the twelve bucks (though for the record, I work hard writing as well, and never solicit money-- in fact the blog owner of the blog I've been writing for takes in money but I never ask for nor receive any. I do it because I enjoy it).

However, by boldly and openly soliciting money you made the point of your post, so even though by the standards you used my mindset would make me much more like a woman blogger (and being exploited by the evil capitalist C.H. Truth), you have certainly took the direct, masculine approach and earned the twelve bucks.

chickenlittle said...

Bravo Eli!

Don't you a little bit better?

Eli Blake said...

No chickenlittle, I don't feel better because I realize that I said, "You have certainly took..."

Thank God that Ann isn't the Grammar Goddess.

I may take the masculine approach though (now that I've sent a donation prorated according to the approximate number of days per week I visit here) and email Ann and ask for a link to the team blog I write for now.

chickenlittle said...

Aaw, man up Eli! Do you need a hug (and money) too?

Eli Blake said...

No, chickenlittle,

I don't need a hug (got a wife, plus two thirteen year olds who still love their dad-- that's an achievement).

Money-- even when I was just doing my own blog (I still have one of those too) I never even bothered with a site meter because I didn't care. On the team blog I write for now I'm happy to be part of something bigger than I am, the money can go to the blog owner.

Eli Blake said...

Put it this way, chickenlittle,

I'm a Liberal. Liberals are motivated by other things than money. If money was my main motivation for doing things then I'd be-- a conservative.

Pogo said...

" Liberals are motivated by other things than money. If money was my main motivation for doing things then I'd be-- a conservative."

That's such an interesting lie, one I'll admit I was trained to believe by my own Democrat parents.

It's based on a purely adolescent view of the world, the fantasy that the world should be something other than what it actually is, and its people should be different as well.

Conservatives grew up.

traditionalguy said...

Pogo is saying the true observation that in this life there are wolves in sheep's clothing (a/k/a liberals) and there are wolves in wolve's clothing(a/k/a conservatives). There are few sweet little sheep in sheep's clothing since they have been eaten up long ago, with the exception of a few kept in well guarded areas like a nearly extinct species. The test is the love of money for protection and power over others. This is why we hated lawyers are in business. No wolves, then no lawyers needed.

Paul Zrimsek said...

George Soros cares nothing for money, but it keeps turning up in his pockets anyway. Imagine his annoyance.

Even when Obama's appointees dodged their taxes it was for selfless reasons.

Pogo said...

That was a far better response than mine, Paul.

commenter said...

Of course, I am so money unwise that i pay for my storage, my blog, my gallery, and my domain name without ever having received a penny., and I get no visitors. I have a counter that doesn't move.

Do you think the price of being on google will ever haunt all you free loading and down loading googlers in the future?

My lawyer thinks i am even silly in my divorce because i wouldn't take his advice and stick it out for a long fight and sticking it to my (now ex)husband, asking for a 60-40 split instead of 50-50, and alimony and reschooling funds ( i don't get any) and this, and that and, and and. I even just let him have custody of the older children. I couldn't bear to have that lawyer make a name for himself over my account of being a rare case. Then live with the fact that all men would see me as a ripping off the species as most divorce men complain about that. I took the fair split in my mind and learned to live simply. I do have disciplines.

commenter said...

Ann, you obviously don't wear corrective lens for astigmatism, and i do. so my perception may be warped.

Anyway, a question for you<

what do you think is fair for men or women to ask for in divorce: what their lawyers see as fair or what they see as fair? Do you think that women think like men as soon as the divorce topic comes to push and shove/ how many times on here do you post about couples and the divorce topic comes up with your followers? There are men that complain about women asking for more money than they expected. who is doing the man/woman thinking?

Pogo said...

Fascinating question, commenter.

commenter said...

thank you for the compliment. I strive for fascinating, and not necessarily good questions. A by-product of this fascinating is that grammar and spelling fall to the wayside for me. It sounds like an excuse for not being more careful, and it probably is, but under my own evaluation it must be why i went from being a very good/tedious speller and grammar student in my youth to a "just get the question out at some cost of appearing stupid or careless" middle aged adult.

1jpb said...

Does Althouse pay for the content she links to?

Those folks are writers who deserve to get paid too, aren't they? Maybe, Althouse hasn't really thought through the implications of her concern for herself deserving to get paid as a writer. While at the same time she doesn't seem to feel that she needs to pay for the writing of others.

Or, maybe she does pay the folks she links to.

And, wouldn't the truly manly person simply demand payment. Maybe Althouse should make her blog a subscription service. Or at least have some sort of premium subscription branch of the blog. That way her most dedicated fans can get special Althouse messages.

Or, at least Althouse can sell bumper stickers, T-shirts, and other fun Althouse themed stuff.

How about one of those money-omoter graphics that shows Althouse's progress toward earning a specific goal.

Maybe Althouse could setup a wedding drive where folks donate to honor her marriage.

How about a car wash? If it was logistically feasible, I'd stop by to get my car washed by Althouse.

How about reselling donuts? Or, selling candy, like the Girl Scouts. I'll buy some, will Althouse ship?

How about a tin can and a sign that reads "have growing family, will blog for cash, anything helps, God bless you."

1jpb said...

How about a thread that asks folks to list what they've given.

We can use peer pressure to ferret out the cheapskates. We'll also find out which Althouse fans/regulars come through by putting their money where their mouths are.

Maybe there can be levels. The platinum level sponsors should get a tote bag.

joy said...

So commenter, what about men who demand alimony? What about men who demand alimony after remarrying?

commenter said...

what about them? same applies.

alimony is outmoded anyway in lawyer speak and tax speak. it usually comes down to reallocated assetts and renaming things